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MaxDZ8



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Link dump Reply with quote

Spikylinks are off.
Navigating the web, I come to choice of games. There's a game called "choice of the dragon", I immediately associated the ideas to Spiky.

It turned out to be a pretty satisfying dragon-ish experience to me. I'll leave you all some days to try it, then maybe we can share some thoughts on that.
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Negation



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 1456
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was interesting game to play. I tried to be cunning dragon that doesn't control his domain just by sheer force. In the end I think it was more or less successful. There were couple set backs, like part of my hoard being stolen though. And amusing one was when one of my goblin minions decided to be a champion and raid neighbouring kingdom. He was stopped short, but managed to cause international incident.
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Only awerewolf on tuesday



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 wounds, 0 blasphemy, 8500 gold.

Got smacked bigtime by the heroes and failed to win over a mate, but other than that had reasonable success. Had a similar goblin champion to Negation.
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Negation



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 1456
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't figured out yet how to win over a mate, but otherwise living as a dragon seems to run smoothly.

Infamy 51%
Wealth 18750 gold coins
Wounds 0
Blasphemy 0

Of course second time playing is quite a bit easier.
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Only awerewolf on tuesday



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, I approached it as a rpg, so the second time I played like an absolute bastard, and got killed by the goddess of war.
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Negation



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 1456
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:D

Even a dragon should know his limits ;P

I'll try something like that too.
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Negation



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 1456
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was interesting. After burning, killing, eating and looting, I made it to end. Got loads more scars this time (and ballista into eye), taunted gods and got a mate. Not bad life at all.
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Nocturne



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 248
Location: UK - England

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice game. :)

20% Brutality / 80% Finesse
42% Cunning / 58% Honour
70% Disdain / 30% Cunning

60% Infamy
15400 Gold Coins
Wounds: 3
Blasphemy: 2

No mate. :(
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Only awerewolf on tuesday



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First competetive run:
74% infamy
23,300 gold
1 wound
1 blasphemy
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MaxDZ8



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering I've left that for a while, I think it's now a good time to share my story as well without influencing others.

What I must say about this game: it is well structured. I constantly feel the difference and consequences of each choice. This is particularly relevant in this one and it is a real plus, a success.

What I disliked: its lack of explanation on a dragon's capabilities and some slight inconsistencies regarding to that. Dragons exhibit different levels of powerfulness over different settings. It was clear since the start that in this setting dragons are extremely powerful beings but it took me around half the game to acknowledge my own skills. Once I did that, I somehow got hardly punished after a battle for being overconfident. I simply cannot quite figure out how a few men with a ballista can leave me war scars after I lined up first of war's main battle. I just took for granted ballistas were here as well... Although I somewhat deserved the beating, I think the game is not consistent here.

Quote:
I tried to be cunning dragon that doesn't control his domain just by sheer force.

My dragon, Rajimar, was meant to be a rather balanced predator. I took panthers or cougars as ideals of balance between sheer brute force and tactics.
In the first try, I really didn't manage to grow him like that (in the end, he really become creature heavily biased towards tactics with a 75% finesse). Considering the story, I believe this game has really reflected a parallel with my real life.

I have spent some thoughts about writing somewhat more on him. I think it would be quite interesting besides the final stats. Unfortunately, since a few days have passed, I don't completely remember the order of things. I would hope for this site to have a way to "save" the taken path for later re-play.

In the end, I was quite satisfied with Rajimar. I think the humans really took him, especially after midgame, as an extremely benevolent being. This wasn't really expected nor wanted but somehow allowed him to grow quite rich. Unfortunately, I gave up alot of treasure during my hibernation (somewhat on purpose, I must add).

Maybe I'll have another play in the next few days, conceptually starting from what Rajimar left.
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Only awerewolf on tuesday



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxDZ8 wrote:
I simply cannot quite figure out how a few men with a ballista can leave me war scars after I lined up first of war's main battle. I just took for granted ballistas were here as well...


It's all about the element of surprise. Dragons fly and are thus very difficult to hit in a pitched battle. You *know* a pitched battle is going to have threats, so you're just going to keep moving around so a ballista hit would be virtually impossible. A small band of humans however couldn't possibly be a threat could they? Unless you don't think they're a threat and just charge strait in unaware that they have a concealed weapon capable of hurting you.

From my experience balanced dragons do not work as well as extreme dragons in *most* situations. There is the occation situation where you need to take a certain route to do well in, for example I think a dragon with a finese of around 90% will always get injured in the battle against the conjuror.
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MaxDZ8



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that surprises me here is what you write.
Do you really think I haven't took this in consideration?
Your in-game explanation makes sense up to a certain point, if one agrees with its assumptions which by the way could be debated.
By contrast, I am unsure I managed to get the message across. Notions such as "game structure", "design inconsistency", "action feedback" are all concepts well acknowledged by industry (de-facto) standards.
Quote:
From my experience balanced dragons do not work as well as extreme dragons in *most* situations.
This does not have to be, especially when the game resolves actions is a so gross-grained way. It's a design decision (or possibly they just took it easy).

Or maybe not? Logic-op documentation is not available on the net but has to be looked for in the game development tool. It takes about two minutes to find. Checking the property of balanceness is by definition, still more involved than simply checking for extremes.

The game definition language itself does not seem to support complicated games without having the user invest a sheer amount of devotion.

I speculate that those games should all be far longer and fine-grained than this, to allow more feedback and proper adjustments. Unfortunately, I am not really sure complexity can grow much without involving brain pain.

This stuff is still quite interesting. I might eventually drop a few lines to the authors.
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Marmbo



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 15
Location: BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 wounds, -1 blasphemy, 12200 golds.

I'm such a lazy dragon.
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Only awerewolf on tuesday



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxDZ8 wrote:
Do you really think I haven't took this in consideration?


Your former statement sounded like one of the following:
1. You had not
2. You disagreed with me on the significance.

I decided to base my answer on 1. rather than 2. for reasons I cannot entirely recall, but I can speculate that an answer for 2., such as I was able to think up at the time would have been confusing in case of 1.

MaxDZ8 wrote:
Your in-game explanation makes sense up to a certain point, if one agrees with its assumptions which by the way could be debated.


I can also see several assumptions in your argument (e.g. field artillery are commonplace despite being ineffective against dragons) as well as ignoring several potentially key factors (chance, the element of surprise).

However, my argument was not made to be watertight, it was made to express my feeling that by filling the blanks in positively rather than negatively the game can easily be considered consistant.

MaxDZ8 wrote:
Notions such as "game structure", "design inconsistency", "action feedback" are all concepts well acknowledged by industry (de-facto) standards.


Yeah, I'm studying the industry at uni (specifically the design side, albiet with conceptual and artistic elements), I'm aware of such terms.

MaxDZ8 wrote:
This does not have to be, especially when the game resolves actions is a so gross-grained way.


Just stating my experience is all.

MaxDZ8 wrote:
Logic-op documentation is not available on the net but has to be looked for in the game development tool.


Okay, starting to lose you at this point.

To conclude, you sound slightly insulted by my previous post(?) If so I assure you, this was not my intention. I should probably add communication is not my strong point and if something I say seems aggrivating to you it's probally due to some lack of understanding on my part and I wholeheartedly appologise.
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MaxDZ8



Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your apologies are not necessary. There was nothing resembling insult. I was just a bit disappointed by reading an explanation geared towards in-game mechanics as opposed to its driving rationale. Stuff like this always drive me somewhat mad. There's a hierarchy of importance between explanations and I am so used to mine that I often forget it's not the only one!
So, to a certain degree, I now need to apologize for not understanding your point of view (although I still don't agree with it).

If you are going to consider those notions, you might want to look at the evolution of hit points over the years. This is probably the most synthetic result of similar considerations.
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