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How to break the curse
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Daigerus



Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak-ryuu wrote:
This one sounds interesting, although I'm not quite sure what you mean by it :)


Vincent has always been a stickler for oaths. So if someone could get him into an oath of killing (insert clause: violent and threatening) dragons, he'd probably stick to that too to the best of his ability.

Comics for Canonical Proof:

http://shd-wk.com/index.php?strip_id=184 Vincent: I am a knight. Just because you can't even hold a squire's position doesn't mean I have to break my oath and forget about the knight's code.

http://shd-wk.com/index.php?strip_id=214 Vincent: It's true that I wasn't given a choice. I was forced to become a knight. But still - I did take the oath. I'm not going to break it.

http://shd-wk.com/index.php?strip_id=368 Tonio: But I would lie if I said that I don't understand you. Those oaths... those vows, they are not to be taken lightly. You better make sure you understand them well before you take them.

http://shd-wk.com/index.php?strip_id=370 Vincent: But if, hypothetically speaking - / Tonio: Of course I would. I don't take an oath like that just to break it.
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ak-ryuu
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daigerus wrote:
Vincent has always been a stickler for oaths. So if someone could get him into an oath of killing (insert clause: violent and threatening) dragons, he'd probably stick to that too to the best of his ability.

That is very true.

However, he has also broken the Knight's Code more than once; I'm too lazy to dig out proof now, but it's there ;) Not in any major ways though; just the minor things like "not being drunk in public", "always wearing armour in public", stuff like that ...

But how would you get him into such an oath in the first place? And strictly speaking, if the Baron orders him to go and kill a dragon, he would have to go. That's what got the Worthless family into this mess in the first place :)
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Cthonic Cultist



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he did break it but only when he wasn't thinking about it. He is an honorable person (not honourable, you silly Brits, with your inventing the English language and your silly accents on Americanese) and he truly wouldn't just break it with no regard to his honor. (HA! I did it again!)
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themunck



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak-ryuu wrote:
Quirc wrote:
As soon as he attempts to use the boots as a weapon, won't that fail him too?

Yeah, it would.


So, the curse zap when when he uses something AS a weapon, not when he uses a weapon? Wouldn't that mean that he can use a knife, as least just to eat with?

ak-ryuu wrote:
"always wearing armour in public"

...Now, I'm not an expert, but when Spiky said here, that Vincent broke the knight's code wasn't that a little strict? I mean, a hotel room hardly counts as "public"
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ak-ryuu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

themunck wrote:
So, the curse zap when when he uses something AS a weapon, not when he uses a weapon? Wouldn't that mean that he can use a knife, as least just to eat with?

It zaps when he uses something that could be classified as a weapon in any way, or when he uses something that isn't strictly a weapon as a weapon ... so knives zap in any case.

themunck wrote:
...Now, I'm not an expert, but when Spiky said here, that Vincent broke the knight's code wasn't that a little strict? I mean, a hotel room hardly counts as "public"

Well, there was a stranger in that hotel room there ... But it is a little strict, yeah. ;)
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Negation



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

themunck wrote:
ak-ryuu wrote:
Quirc wrote:
As soon as he attempts to use the boots as a weapon, won't that fail him too?

Yeah, it would.


So, the curse zap when when he uses something AS a weapon, not when he uses a weapon? Wouldn't that mean that he can use a knife, as least just to eat with?


I seem to remember that the curse went something like "No Worthless shall ever hold a weapon, and no Worthless shall live beyond his twenty-sixth year...". I would understand that it means weapons and items used as a wepon (since at that point they count as a weapon).

themunck wrote:

ak-ryuu wrote:
"always wearing armour in public"

...Now, I'm not an expert, but when Spiky said here, that Vincent broke the knight's code wasn't that a little strict? I mean, a hotel room hardly counts as "public"


That would be pretty strict. Maybe Spiky meant it more like "you should have stayed away from that female" and just wanted to have the true meaning partly hidden?
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Dahak



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

themunck wrote:
ak-ryuu wrote:
Quirc wrote:
As soon as he attempts to use the boots as a weapon, won't that fail him too?

Yeah, it would.


So, the curse zap when when he uses something AS a weapon, not when he uses a weapon? Wouldn't that mean that he can use a knife, as least just to eat with?


I've been assuming it was that he couldn't touch things he thought of as a weapon. Which would explain the time he used the knife Shura had Spikey provide, in that it wasn't until he thought about what he was doing that he got zapped.

That also explains his grandfather having no problem with table knives if thats true because he didn't think of them as weapons, where as Vincent has grown up thinking about what might be a weapon to avoid the curse.

As for removing the curse there seem to be a number of options;

1] Get the Dragons to remove it. At the moment that seems to be in the Barons gift but there might be leverage in the Draconic law that the previous baron invoked to get the curse in the first place.

2] Slay a Dragon. Either literaly [Strangling Edgar for example] or metaphorically [La Petite Mort comes to mind].Or some combination of the two [killing a bandit lord who calls himeslf the Green Dragon.]

3] Stop being a Worthless and thus not be a target. Vincent is an orphan so being adopted might work [the only characters even vaguely suited to doing this that are known to be sympathetic to Vincent appear to be Sir Dega or Sir Siron.] Getting married and taking his wife's name is a little less likely but could be combined with being adopted. But Vincent likely to refuse to do this because it might entangle the bride in the curse. Joining a religous or military order that requires a name change is also possible. It would be somewhat in keeping with the tone if all Vincent has to do is change his name by deed poll...

4]Stop being cursable. Either living in a locale where curses don't work or by becoming inherently anti magical. Tricky in a universe where magic is more than a little rare.

5] Acquire an equal and opposite curse/blessing. Being cursed not to suffer the effects of his family curse might do.

6] Go along with whatever plot it is that the dragons seem to be upto. comic 535 implies Alexander and others have a plan that involves Spikey associating with Vincent. It wouldbe helpful to working this out to know who Shura is refering to when he says "he'll get what he deserves."

7] Die. Preferably in a temporary way in the hope the curse with terminate with Vincents death. Of course if Vincents dearth does't end the curse it's going to go looking as it were for Worthless knights.
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ak-ryuu
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dahak, welcome to the forum! You make a lot of great points here, I would so love to reply to them all but I need to keep my mouth shut so as not to ruin the storyline ;P

Dahak wrote:
[...]Getting married and taking his wife's name is a little less likely but could be combined with being adopted.

It's not unheard of though; Sir Lothar for example did take his wife's name.

Dahak wrote:
4]Stop being cursable. Either living in a locale where curses don't work or by becoming inherently anti magical. Tricky in a universe where magic is more than a little rare.

This is the one that I want to flat out say won't work ... The dragons' power reaches far enough ;P

Dahak wrote:
It wouldbe helpful to working this out to know who Shura is refering to when he says "he'll get what he deserves."

I'm happy to see that somebody noticed that statement as being ambiguous :) From the discussion about that specific strip, it seemed that most people took it as obviously referring to Vincent.

Dahak wrote:
Of course if Vincents dearth does't end the curse it's going to go looking as it were for Worthless knights.

As of now, Vincent is the only Worthless knight left though, so his death would definitely end it.
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TheOtherDibbler



Joined: 28 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak-ryuu wrote:
Dahak wrote:
Of course if Vincents death does't end the curse it's going to go looking as it were for Worthless knights.

As of now, Vincent is the only Worthless knight left though, so his death would definitely end it.
But didn't Roland say he'd take the curse upon himself if Vincent dies without progeny? Or does the curse not care about that?

Edit: Aha! Found 'em. here, here and here!

Dahak wrote:
5] Acquire an equal and opposite curse/blessing. Being cursed not to suffer the effects of his family curse might do.
That sounds to me like spontaneous combustion caused by universal confusion. It might work, but the whole issue would pretty much become moot at that point.
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Last edited by TheOtherDibbler on Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheOtherDibbler



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dahak wrote:
7] Die. Preferably in a temporary way in the hope the curse with terminate with Vincents death. Of course if Vincents dearth does't end the curse it's going to go looking as it were for Worthless knights.
Hmmm... I'm trying to find the strip I mentioned in my previous post, and I found this - seems to suggest that the reason Vincent could use a knife that time he tried to stab Roland was because he was technically 'dead' at the time, or something. Like he temporarily 'died' and so the curse was broken, but it came back when he turned out to be not actually dead after all.

I never know if I'm making sense.

Edit: And now I've found this - I completely forgot about this. Figured I'd point it out in case anyone wants to use it to back up a theory. And, well, it pretty much debunks my above theory. He wasn't 'dead' on this occasion, although he wasn't really himself either.
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ak-ryuu
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheOtherDibbler wrote:
But didn't Roland say he'd take the curse upon himself if Vincent dies without progeny? Or does the curse not care about that?

Oh yeah, I actually forgot about for a moment there ;P True, Edgar said he could arrange the curse to be passed onto somebody else, if the Baron wants that. But it wouldn't really be the same curse anymore, since that would not suddenly turn Roland into offspring of the original Worthless knight ...

TheOtherDibbler wrote:
Edit: And now I've found this - I completely forgot about this.

Good find ;)
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Dahak



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ak-ryuu wrote:
Hi Dahak, welcome to the forum! You make a lot of great points here, I would so love to reply to them all but I need to keep my mouth shut so as not to ruin the storyline ;P


And we wouldn't want you to do that. :)

ak-ryuu wrote:

Dahak wrote:
Of course if Vincents dearth does't end the curse it's going to go looking as it were for Worthless knights.

As of now, Vincent is the only Worthless knight left though, so his death would definitely end it.


So the curse isn't going to drop the capital letter in that situation. Hmm. And Vincent belongs to Alexander/the Dragons so they can mess with his head without needing a reason.

ak-ryuu wrote:
But it wouldn't really be the same curse anymore, since that would not suddenly turn Roland into offspring of the original Worthless knight ...


Just a thought. But for Edgar's brother having to die to invoke the curse it wouldn't take much more capability than the dragons have demonstrated to just use the dragon mind trick to convince everyone there was a curse.

After all there is not much difference between being zapped when picking up a weapon and being convinced you've been zapped.
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TheOtherDibbler



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dahak wrote:
After all there is not much difference between being zapped when picking up a weapon and being convinced you've been zapped.

Hmm... have there been any instances where Vincent has been zapped without his being previously aware of the weapon in question? Like someone coming up behind him and touching him with a knife or something?
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ak-ryuu
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheOtherDibbler wrote:
Hmm... have there been any instances where Vincent has been zapped without his being previously aware of the weapon in question? Like someone coming up behind him and touching him with a knife or something?

Yes; the very first time, for example, #8. Or then in #59. Those are the two that came to my mind right away, there might be more.
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TheOtherDibbler



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha - thanks ak-ryu - that looks to me like evidence against that theory Dahak.


Ak-ryu, how much evil pleasure do you get from watching us all run around in circles coming up with all these outrageous (and incorrect) theories?
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